Episode 116 – How to Increase a Founder’s Income by Increasing Yield – Member Case by Ehsan Mirdamadi

The yield of a boutique is the ultimate measure of productivity. Yield is simply the average fee per hour times the average utilization rate. For example, $400/hour x 75% utilization rate = a yield of $300/hour. Increase yield and make more money. But, how? One effective technique is to tech automate service delivery.  On this episode, Ehsan Mirdamadi, Partner & CEO at NuBinary, explains that small service firms can now afford to tech automate service delivery by leveraging a fractional CTO (Chief Technology Officer).

Listen to this episode and learn how the fractional executive model has entered the technology office. Many Collective 54 members use fractional finance, HR, IT, and Legal executives. Now, they have the opportunity to leverage fraction technology executives. And those that do will see an increase in yield.


Greg Alexander [00:00:15] Welcome to the Pro Serv podcast with Collective 54, a podcast for leaders of thriving boutique professional services firms. For those who don’t know who we are, Collective 54 is a mastermind community dedicated entirely on the needs of leaders of thriving boutique pro serv firms. My name is Greg Alexander. I’m the founder and I’ll be your host. And on this episode I’m going to talk to you about tech automating the service delivery that you offer your clients and how that could help you expand margins. And we’re going to discuss a cost effective way and a less risky way of doing that by leveraging a fractional CTO. And we’ve got a great role model with us to help me with this. His name is, and I’m going to do my best here. Ehsan Mirdamadi. Was I close? Okay. Fantastic. Yeah. And. And this is what his firm does. His firm provides many things, one of which is fractional CTO services. So, Ehsan, thank you for being here. It’s good to see you. Would you please introduce yourself?

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:01:29] Thank you. And this is Ehsan Mirdamadi, and I am the co-founder and the CEO of fractional CTO service company called NuBinary.

Greg Alexander [00:01:42] Okay. And say a first name for me one more time.

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:01:46] Ehsan

Greg Alexander [00:01:47] Ehsan. Okay. Got it. I was saying Ahsan, Ehsan. I will do my best here to stick with that. I tell you what, for the rest of the show, you can call me Bob. All right, So. So the big idea here today is a lot of our members understand that automating service delivery through technology as a way to accelerate, scale, and expand margins. But many of them are not technologists, and they’ve wasted a bunch of money trying to do this, and now they’re fearful of trying it again. And usually when they waste a bunch of money is they go hire an expensive chief technology officer and they miss hire that person because they don’t know what good looks like because they’ve never hired one before and now they’ve retreated. So when I met Ehsan and he told me about his fractional CTO model, I was really excited about it because our members have leveraged fractional executives in other disciplines. CFO, head of H.R., Head of sales, etc. and the huge advantage of doing that is that Ehsan knows what good looks like. So if you are hiring a fractional cto from him, there’s a good chance that that person has been through a thorough screening process, and it’s the right person for you. So we’re going to try to take this concept of a fractional CTO and apply it to this unique use case, which is to leverage that person’s expertise to help you tech automate service delivery as a way to accelerate scale. So that’s what we’re talking about today. So let’s start with the very basics. So what is a fractional CTO?

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:03:18] So fractional CTO offering is obviously a part-time engagement that allows us to bring in a senior chief technology officer into into the into our engagement with the clients. And and these CTOs that we are hand-selecting are the type of CTOs that have gone through their own journey and process of starting with an idea and understand the business objectives and really trying to marry the business objectives with of their technology development objectives, which in a sense means this is a obviously a senior role and that that essentially allows companies to think strategically about how they want to adopt or build technologies for their practice.

Greg Alexander [00:04:12] Okay. And how did you come up with this idea? Because this is fairly unique.

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:04:19] So myself and my co-founders, we all consider ourselves CEO entrepreneurs. We have done our own a fair bit of experimentation with other ideas and also been able to begin to to engage ourselves and really. Be out there, try to bring ideas to life in other initiatives and other endeavors that we have had in our previous businesses or as consultants helping other businesses to do so. In our first encounter. And as we started coming up with ideas on how we can position better for what we do in the market, we essentially started gathering ideas from, you know, the ecosystem that we were part of the innovation ecosystem down here in southern Ontario. And also we started going through our journeys or personal journeys as we were doing the fractional sport and the CTO offerings or helping others. And so one of the key elements, a few of the key elements that we encountered was that for the most part, companies go through a multitude of iterations in what they build. They and that’s usually on average about three times before they figure it out how to do it properly. And that good around 50% of those projects actually fail. And also that, you know, they spend a lot of their capital into really building a tech component to their businesses. And so we realized knowing all of these facts essentially is pointing out towards this this conclusion that obviously we need to do something that increases the chance of success in these type of projects and also help the founders, the owners of the companies to essentially reduce their ultimate cost doing so. So we we started just experimenting with youth with a few different types of messaging to go out there and essentially talk about our work. And we realized that the CTO word is actually a good encapsulation of what we were trying to do is to talk to to our audiences about okay.

Greg Alexander [00:06:57] And for our audience, as you know, these are non tech companies, These are small services firms. But these days, technology is touching everything. And in order for them to scale, they have to figure out a way to automate through technology, or they’re going to have ballooning labor costs and never really get to substantial profitability. The surprisingly to you, I would imagine many people don’t know what a CTO does. I think this job to the to the folks that don’t come from the tech world is a little confusing and they’re not 100% sure of what it is that they do. For example, I was on the phone with a member last week and they hired a software development firm to write some code. But the spec they gave the software development firm, you know, what they told them to build just wasn’t well thought out. So they to your point, they tried it three times. They wasted a bunch of money and they never really got anything. And what I advise them on is, is they put the cart before the horse. They really needed a CTO to tell them what they should be building in the first place based on the needs of the business. So that’s my kind of layman’s explanation as to what a CTO does. Would you provide greater clarity, you know, if you were to describe to our audience members what a CTO does, what would you say?

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:08:18] Again. I wanted to put our attention back on this warning that we think makes a lot of sense and resonates with a lot of our audience and in this case as well, is that CTOs are the CTOs main job is to make sure that they marry the business objectives, what are the technical objectives? So as you pointed out, if you go to any software development company, that’s their job to essentially learn from from the owners on what they’re trying to build. And they essentially go back and come back with a scope. And they they obviously and the bigger the scope, the better for them. Whereas a CTO would love to understand first that what what is it that they’re trying to achieve as a business objective for their for the institution, for the corporation? And so the whole conversation of really trying to understand what needs to be built starts with that. Otherwise, we technologists to try to be fancy with our I guess technology builds and we try to make it as as complex as it can be and start, adding more features and bells and whistles into it. But a CTO obviously would like to know if any of those features and components that they’re anticipating and imagine imagining for the ultimate solution actually makes sense and delivers on a very specific basis. So to just drill down a little bit more on this topic, on this idea. The CTO needs to understand who the who the users are for those platforms and what are they trying to achieve. Is it on the matter of, for example, storing information or presenting the information in a certain way and how they are used to going about, you know, doing certain things like, for example? If you are dealing with a institution that deals with their health data, with the patient data. It is important to really understand that from the from the day first you want to have some level of security and compliance, consider or not initiate an event. So obviously one and you want to make sure that the data is anonymous and so on and so on. And also that over time you want to make sure that the company understands that the software is simply like a living mechanism, which requires maintenance, which requires which requires, you know, we’re going through an evolutionary process every now and then, getting the feedback from the clients and really try to make it better as time passes by. And so as a CTO, you also be you should be looking out into the future to see what kind of challenges it may pose for that institution, for that company to essentially continue adopting new business practices and processes.

Greg Alexander [00:11:33] Okay, very good. Yeah, that was a great example of, for example, security and compliance around health care data and understanding who the users are. And that’s the big point that Ehsan is trying to make right now, which is this chief technology officer is a hybrid business person slash technologist. And as a result of that, and that’s the key element here, they really can help our members and founders of boutique process firms. Why shouldn’t a small services firm? Just go out and hire a full time CTO. Why rent a fractional CTO?

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:12:14] There are many reasons for that. One of them is that you obviously don’t know what you don’t know as as a leader of your company. You may think that certain skill sets is just simply what you need for for your type of business. And so when it comes to the CTO world, there is a vast range of different types of technologies that people are exposed to, and maybe their experience, as it may seem relevant. It may not be as you may think. The other reason that we are seeing it more and more and often these things is that technology deals are becoming more and more complex these days. So the time and the era of when you could actually build and build an app and conquer the world with that what the Uber of the world did is over. The technology has become a lot more complex and has many different components to it, and so you probably won’t be able to find the CTO that has that bad range of expertise to be able to to achieve the goals and objectives, because what they are designed for, for that individual. So when it comes to fractional CTO often because our CTOs are exposed to a whole range of different things, not only through their own direct engagement with the clients but also being part of the cloud, and other CTOs that can essentially reach out to another individual from the team and say, I think I need a security expert or cybersecurity expert to take a look at this and say we are in the right. They need to be able to reach out to another person that understands the cloud architecture, for example, to understand if they are concerned about their scalability considerations. And so the list goes on and on. But it’s actually quite a big list starts with the business continuity again, compliance and high visibility considerations and audit things that it can provide us as a few examples. Yeah.

Greg Alexander [00:14:25] You know, I’ll share a real example with our members because they know Collective 54 and this might highlighted for it. You know, there used to be a time when we had a smaller membership and a member had a problem and wanted to speak to another member and it was this manual process they would call their customer service rep and say, Hey, do you know anybody that can do this has done X, Y, Z, and then would have to manually go through all of our members and and make connection for that person. So we obviously said, well, you know, when we get to a few hundred members, which we’re at now, that doesn’t work. It doesn’t scale. So we need to create a member directory in the member directory needs to be made public to our members and they should be able to connect with one another and have a robust search feature. So we engage with a CTO and and you know, I as the owner of the firm and all these assumptions as to what it should do and all this and and he said, Greg, you’re getting ready to make a bunch of mistakes If you keep going down, the path is going on, you know, you’re going to have to rebuild this thing several times. And he caused me to pump the brakes. He spent some time with the members actually understood from the member’s perspective, you know, what the typical use cases were and what they would want in the future functionality. So when we did it, we got it right the first time, which was hugely impactful for us because it was a better experience for members, it was a way better experience for our employees. It reduced my labor component and it was just a win for everybody. So it’s just a great example of how you can use technology as a service company to deliver service for your members or in your case, your clients. That improves the client experience and improves your P&L because now the tech is doing the service instead of a person, which means, you know, the tech works 24 hours a day with no bathroom breaks. Right? It’s just less costly and it will be forever. So I want to encourage everybody that’s listening to this. Here’s your call-to-action readers and listeners, is that you need to engage tech automation. I mean, it’s no longer optional. So if you’re a services firm and you don’t have a tech component, you’re falling behind. And if you think you can’t afford it, you’re wrong. You can because there’s this new concept called the fractional CTO. And if you engage with firms like this, you, you shift some of the risk to them. I mean, it’s their job to build the right community of fractional CTOs and understand what your needs are and give you the right resource. So it’s a lot more doable now than it ever has been and it’s a big win for you. So listen, thanks for being on the show today. It was wonderful to listen to you and hear about your company. I know you’re a relatively new member, but your presence means a lot because I don’t think our members are tapping this resources resource as often as they could. And the way we all get better is, you know, every time a bright person like yourself joins the community, collective wisdom goes up for everybody. So on behalf of everyone that’s listening to this, thank you so much, Ehsan, for being on the show today and for being part of Collective 54.

Ehsan Mirdamadi [00:17:32] Thank you so much for having me. And what I wanted to leave you off with this statement that we have, this thesis that every company on this planet is now becoming a type of technology company. And the same way that they required lawyers and accountants as a baseline, we think that they also require a CTO.

Greg Alexander [00:17:52] Yeah, I agree with you. I really do. And I think we’re going to agree with you more and more as time goes on. For sure. I mean, that old phrase, I forget who said it, but software is eating. The world is accurate and we have to develop this core competency in order to do well. So. Okay. So that’s the end of this show. Thanks for listening. And a couple of things for you. So members, be sure to attend the Friday Q&A session with Ehsan. I’m sure you’ve got a lot of questions. The devil’s always in the details, like how much does this cost, etc., etc. And we’ll address all that on the Friday Q&A. And if you’re not a member, but you think you might want to be and meet really smart people like Ehsan, consider joining Collective 54 and you can do so at collective54.com. Just fill out the contact us form and somebody will get in contact with you. And then lastly, if you’re not ready to join but you want access to content like this, consider subscribing to collective 54 insights. If you do so, you get three things every week a blog, a podcast and a chart, and you can find that also a collective54.com. Okay, Thanks for listening and look forward to the next the next episode. Take care.

Episode 61 – Yield: The Ultimate Measure of Productivity – Member Case with Aaron Levenstadt

Yield is the ultimate measure of productivity for professional services firms. On this episode, we interview Aaron Levenstadt, Founder and CEO of Pedestal Search and discuss how he uses yield to manage his firm.


Sean Magennis [00:00:15] Welcome to the Boutique with Collective 54, a podcast for founders and leaders of boutique professional services firms. Our goal with this show is to help you grow, scale and exit your firm bigger and faster. I’m Sean Magennis Collective 54 Advisory Board member and your host. On this episode, I will make the case that yield is the ultimate measure of productivity. I’ll try to prove this theory by interviewing Aaron Levenstadt, founder and CEO of Pedestal Search Pedestal, is a marketing technology company and data driven search engine marketing platform founded by former Google employees. Pedestal create systems and processes to help businesses better leverage internet search engines as a growth channel. You can find Aaron and his business on pedestalsearch.com. Aaron, great to see you and welcome. 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:01:17] Thanks, Sean, it’s good to be sharing this conversation with you. 

Sean Magennis [00:01:21] Likewise, it’s great to have you. So today we’re going to discuss one of the most often looked at metrics in all of professional services, yield. A reminder to our audiences that the definition of yield is simply the average fee per hour, times the average utilization rate of the team. For instance, if a boutiques average fee per hour is $400 and the average utilization rate is 75 percent, then the yield is $300 per hour. Aaron, let’s start with an overview. Can you briefly share with the audience an example of how you think about and manage yield? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:02:02] Yes, certainly. So we keep track of yield, but we don’t obsess over it. And by keep track, I mean, we look at utilization for our team members individually as a collective, as a company. Yes. And also on a per account basis, we think of yield attributed to an account. And although we know that it actually should be the most looked at metric, I want to start off on this piece, we don’t obsess over it. Rather, we focus on and we think a lot about how to source technology and actions from our team members that are value drivers for our clients. So that yield becomes less of a focal point. And we’ve found that over time, focusing too much on yield can lead to some inherent scalability gaps. On the other hand, If we can shift our focus to where we can open up value, that can allow us to create a significant gap between each counts of utilization. Yes, and value created. 

Sean Magennis [00:03:08] Outstanding, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. So what I’d like to do is get your thoughts on some of the best practices that we recommend in this area. So there, four specific things, I’ll walk you through and then have you share your thoughts on each. So the first one is the typical boutique runs of an assumption of a 40 hour workweek, a 48 week year that equates to nineteen hundred and seventy two hours per employee, and using our early example at $300 per hour. The boutique will do five hundred seventy six thousand in revenue per employee, a 100 person firm. Let’s say with this yield, we’ll do fifty seven point six million in annual revenue. So understanding yield means you understand how much you can scale to. It establishes a ceiling. What are your thoughts on this concept Aaron? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:04:00] Yeah, so that exactly where we last left off on the ceiling, so the way that we think about it is instead of sort of focusing on the ceiling, which is defined exactly by the yield equation, if you think about it from that perspective, yes, we think instead of us deploying program stocks as opposed to hours or manpower that generate value, tech driven by great people. And in that way, yield becomes less of a focus and we shift the focus to how to drive value throughout our engagements. 

Sean Magennis [00:04:39] I like that. So deploy program stack and shift to the value rather than exclusively focus on yield. Have I got that right? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:04:49] That’s exactly right Sean. 

Sean Magennis [00:04:50] Excellent. So the second one is we contend that most firms, when they try to scale, they’ve reached a point of sort of diminishing returns on utilization rates. And we feel this way because there’s only so much juice to squeeze out of the 40 hour workweek and the 48 week year. What’s your opinion on this? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:05:12] So I think I think, you know, you’re exactly right in how how we’re thinking about this, because the economics and the way that we think about it is the economics around what we do in the way we’re working with a client. They have to work for the client. Most importantly, they also have to work within our our rubric, and we think about it that way. They can allow for scalability. Yes. In a different way than thinking about yield on the, you know, hours and then and then person in the equation. So there’s that, you know, there’s that parable of the chemist that gets called into the factory, right? The factories sprung a leak. Yeah. And the chemist walks in and looks around. He’s taken a look at the machines and he scratches his chin and he thinks, you know, he sees where the leak is coming from. He sees it. He identifies the problem. He quickly creates a chemical compound, using his knowledge to patch the leak in the factories, able to resume production. And then the factory owner calls the chemist, you know, some time later, and he says, Hey, I got your invoice here. It’s for thirty thousand dollars, but you were only here for ten minutes. And the chemist replies, Yeah, that’s right. That’s $10 for my time. And 29 990 for knowing how to fix your problem in 10 minutes. Beautiful. We try to apply that same philosophy. 

Sean Magennis [00:06:34] I mean, that really hits the nail on the head. I mean, and you know, how have you learned that lesson? I mean, you know, that’s a great parable. You know, give me give me a practical example of how you’ve done it. 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:06:47] Yeah, we’ve learned this lesson the hard way. So like, you know, I think like how a lot of us, maybe all of us learn through experiencing pain and a lot of it. And early on in the life of our business, we accepted some engagements where our clients asked bill by the hour and we we took those on those early stages of our company. You know, from a financial perspective, they weren’t. They were great. They were not great. But they also, more importantly, they were not great from an internal morale perspective because the conversations with our clients shifted to, you know, our teams were talking to our team members or talking to clients about why sixteen point three minutes was spent on that and an hour and 12 minutes was spent on this. And they just they weren’t productive, fulfilling conversations. So endured some pain learned the hard way, and we don’t do that anymore. 

Sean Magennis [00:07:46] And to your point, earlier, when you focus on value, you know, when you’ve created this, you know and deployed this program stack, you don’t have to get into that nickel and diming conversation, which is soul sucking. I agree with you, it’s it’s just not productive. So let’s turn to fees. The key to scaling in this context is to figure out how to become more valuable, which is what you’ve said. And remember, this is an equation with only two variables. Utilization rate dollars per hour. So owners of boutiques have a lot more juice to squeeze out of the dollar per hour. And in your case, maybe the value of the dollar value per stack and then impacting the dollar per hour variable. It’s just not as easy as raising prices. Clients will pay more for boutiques that bring more value to them, and this is because they turn to boutiques for specialization. What do you think about this? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:08:45] I think it resonates very well with our experience in the sense that it resonates so much that today what we do when we’re first meeting with the client, when workers starting that conversation before we’re engaged and working with them, we try to have this conversation openly and candidly at the outset. So very early on and speaking to a potential client, we will communicate and that we’re we’re a specialist, we’re not a generalist and we are going to do the way that we think about our engagements is really by how much value we can drive. 

Sean Magennis [00:09:19] Yes. Yes. Excellent, and then, you know, I guess there’s a lot of things that come into that in terms of variability. You know, and it’s really working to change sometimes the client perspective, right? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:09:35] Yeah, you want to. You want to change the client perspective, and I want to do it early on in this conversation, so it will we’ll see things in these conversations. You know, like what we do is we help you generate more productive traffic from search. Yes. As importantly, will also say what we don’t like and we’ll say things like, We don’t make pizza, we don’t shoot.  

Sean Magennis [00:10:02] Right? Yeah. Your expertize are search and by the way, with the resume of of you and your team. I mean, that would appear to be, you know, a no brainer. But reminding them of that specialty is key to creating the kind of value that will drive the fees and drive the recognition and obviously get you more business. I get that. That’s really great. So the fourth aspect in our experience, we see five forms of specialization that translate to higher fees, and they are industry specialization, function, segment problem and geography. And in our view, if you’ve got at least three of those, you truly are a specialized firm. So in your case, where are your areas of specialty? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:10:54] Yeah. So this is an area that we give a lot of thought to. I it’s an area that we’re continuing to refine as our business evolves and grows. And there’s the three that I think that stand out at sort of top of mind would be the function of the problem and the segment go function. Having worked at Google and worked on the search engine algorithm itself, we really understand that world and that’s the functionality that we want to be operating on and what we specialize in. Yes. The problem in a kind of stemming from that. So the second prong problem is really about how to unlock search discoverability, and we’ll see if things are going our conversational, the clients we don’t we’re not here to help you solve 50 different kinds of problems. We we are going to help you solve the problem that we specialize in. We know how to do how to solve for. Yes. And then the third one on our world is is segment. And the way that we think about this segment is really in terms of a profile, psychological to a certain degree, in the sense that our potential client, our partner who needs to know what they’re looking for and know that they have had some success with search and they really want to invest in building and bringing systems and processes to drive that search engine optimization motion more. 

Sean Magennis [00:12:16] Outstanding and that’s again for our listeners. You know, take this from from Aaron. When building your your firm and thinking about your specialization, be really clear, like Aaron is in terms of what what your service can offer the specific problem and don’t try and be all things to all people, I think is the ultimate lesson. Would you agree, Aaron? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:12:38] Yeah, 100 100 percent. Even on going back to a little bit about what we were talking on earlier is will remind the client when we’re talking to them both before we work with them and while we’re working. Yes, there are lots of things that we are not good at. And if you ask us to do those things, we’re going to say, no. We will fuel you with those things. I think by reminding the client of that, it reaffirms the fact that we’re not a generalist. We’re not just going to do anything that the client’s willing to pay us for. Yes, we’re nationalist and that’s what we’re here to help them with. 

Sean Magennis [00:13:18] That’s such a key point. And I’m I’m assuming that during the course of your journey, you found that at some point it was difficult to say no to client coming you for two for business, right? So scoping is important and really having the professional integrity to say no is key. What do you think about that? 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:13:36] I cannot agree more. Also learned through enduring pain and pain. 

Sean Magennis [00:13:45] Exactly, you learn. That’s how we learn. 

Aaron Levenstadt [00:13:48] Yeah. So yeah, we’ve taken on some work that you know early on that we should not have diverged from our land of expertize from, you know, the thing that we’ve done hundreds of times in doing successfully. And now we’re more careful about that. 

Sean Magennis [00:14:03] Outstanding. And this is so helpful. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I’ve learned several additional aspects to the importance of managing yield. I like the way you presented your business in terms of the technology and the value aspect. So this takes us to the end of this episode. And as is customary, we end each show with a tool. We do so because this allows the listener to apply the lessons to his or her firm. Our preferred tool is a checklist, and our style of checklist is a yes or no questionnaire. We aim to keep it simple by asking only 10 questions. And in this instance, if you answer yes to eight or more of these questions, you’re running a tight ship with excellent yield. If you said no too many times you have a yield problem and this will be an impediment to scaling. Given the proprietary nature of Aaron’s business, I’m not going to put Aaron on the spot with these, but I am going to read off the questions for the benefit of our listeners. 

Sean Magennis [00:15:09] So the first one is are your average utilization rates above 85 percent? Number two, senior staff above 70 percent? Number three, mid-level staff above 80 percent? Number four, junior staff above 90 percent? Number five, are your average fees above $400 per hour? Number six, are your senior staff above $750 per hour? Number seven, mid-level staff above 500? Number eight junior staff above 250? Number nine are you assuming a 48 week year and 40 hours per week? And number ten, are you distinguished from the generalist with three to five forms of specialization? 

Sean Magennis [00:16:04] So in summary, yield is the ultimate measure of productivity for professional services firms. Watch out for the trap of over rotating to utilization rates and under indexing the second variable in the equation, which is dollars per hour. Drive up your fees like Aaron, by becoming more valuable to your clients by becoming hyper specialized. If you do so, the sky is the limit on your scale potential. Aaron, a huge thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today. It’s a pleasure having you. If you enjoyed the show and want to learn more, pick up a copy of the book The Boutique How to Start, Scale and Sell a Professional Services Firm. Written by Collective 54 founder Greg Alexander.

And for more expert support, check out Collective 54, the first mastermind community for founders and leaders of boutique professional services firms. Collective 54 will help you grow, scale and exit your firm bigger and faster.

Go to Collective54.com to learn more.

Thank you for listening.