Episode 177 – Accidentally Running a Firm: A Journey from Freelancer to Boutique Firm – Member Case by Miles Kailburn

In this session we will delve into the fascinating story of transforming a lifestyle firm into a thriving boutique business. Miles Kailburn, Founder and CEO of OTM will share how and when the decision was made to shift from a freelancer model to a true boutique, to today’s efforts to scale the firm. Discover the challenges, strategies, and lessons learned along the way, and gain valuable insights for your own business transformation.


Greg Alexander:

Hey, there, everybody. This is Greg Alexander, Founder of Collective 54. You’re listening to the Pro Serve podcast to show dedication to helping founders of thriving boutique professional services firms to grow, scale, and maybe some day exit their firms. And on today’s episode, we’ve got an interesting story and I think this story is going to resonate with everybody and that is some of us have started our firms kind of accidentally. We accidentally acted like a, for a number of years. And then the business grew and grew. And then we wake up one day and we say, jeez maybe I got something and I wanna go from this kind of freelance business model and try to build a real firm. We call that a boutique and try to scale it to something substantial that might be a wealth creation asset for the founder. So that’s what we’re going to explore today. And with us to help us explore, this is somebody who lived that very journey. He’s a longstanding well respected Collective 54 member. His name is Miles Kailburn, and Miles, would you please introduce yourself to the audience?

Miles Kailburn:

Certainly. Thanks, Greg. My name is Miles Kailburn, I’m one of the Co-Founders and CEO, at Old Town Media. We’re located here in Fort Collins, Colorado. And we’re a marketing firm that focuses on high lifetime value segments. So, medical automotive, housing, B2B pro serve those types of industries. And really behind all that is our customer journey work. So that’s the segment we’ve found ourselves in after 17 years.

Greg Alexander:

Okay. So speaking of 17 years, when you and I were speaking last, you said something to me that really stuck. And there was the reason why I asked you to be on the show and you said, listen, I accidentally ran my firm for years. So let’s hit the rewind button and go all the way back to that time period and tell everybody how the firm started, why you feel you accidentally ran it for that long? How long did that last kind of put some color around that for us?

Miles Kailburn:

Yeah, certainly it’s something that’s made us feel a little awkward. So, I think a lot of excuse me, a lot of businesses start out, you know, have this perception. They start out with this grand vision and they set out business plan to execute it and it’s just linear path. And, and our path was definitely not that at all. You know, my wife and I moved out from new York. We moved to Colorado, and she was finishing her college undergrad in design and she decided that she would do some freelance work and my background was in it. So we kinda looked at the numbers and said, hey, you could do a couple of freelance projects. While you’re going through college, you’ll make the same amount of money that you would be making work on a college job and get some experience. And so we kind of started down that path. I moonlight Ed for her writing some code, you know, she’s really just kind of a small boutique little, I shouldn’t even say boutique freelancer building web projects. And so that started to five to six ish and it slowly just kind of built on itself. I left my it consulting gig and joined her fulltime probably around 2007. And we reincorporated as otm at that point and started to just run that model. We didn’t know what the model was. We didn’t know what we’re doing. We were focused on the craft and… excuse me, couple of years into that process, you find yourself with an employee and then you find yourself looking for office space, you know, a massive 600 square foot office and you sign that lease and… you know, every year or so probably about every year we’d added a team member. So probably around 2009. Well, you know, we’ll skip right over 2008. We grew through 2008. You know, we were a small company growing through that. We didn’t know what a recession was. So, so we fared pretty well through that kept growing. And I think around 2009 or so, we had four or five people. And, and that was probably around the first time that we kind of looked around the office, and there is this moment of it’s no longer this side gig, freelance model. You know, we have stable recurring revenue. We have team members who have mortgages and there is a strong co dependence and there is this just kind of moment of we actually, I think we have a company here. I think that’s what this is now.

Greg Alexander:

It’s such a great story and you shouldn’t feel awkward about it because I will tell you, I’ve heard that story dozens of times inside collected 54. I think that is a common way that professional services firms get founded. Many of us might not have the courage to admit it like you were doing here publicly, so, thank you for that, but I think that’s, a very common way. I wanna hone in on the moment that you said, jeez there’s a co dependency here. We’ve got employees, they got mortgages, you had this sense of obligation, continue to provide employment to these people and of course, you were dependent on them because they were doing the work and, you know, helping you pay the bills and all that. When did you decide to go for it? To say we’re going to really try to scale this thing and like, and what was the motivation? Because it sounded like you and your wife had a heck of a nice lifestyle. There wasn’t a lot of stress, happy clients. You, you blew right through the greatest recession, you’ll ever see in your life and didn’t realize what happened. So, like why I screw that up and go for it?

Miles Kailburn:

You know, when we started the business, I don’t know, we were 20 and 21, maybe we had no idea what we were doing. You know, we’ll say business but, you know, freelancer then incorporating as a business and all that. It kind of hit in two stages. The first stage was recognizing that co-dependence and then realizing, shoot, there’s a whole lot to this that we don’t know. We need to go figure out HR. We need to figure out payroll. We need to figure out all these other systems that really were not part of the vision to date of the company. But we love the team. We love the people that we’re working with. And so I would say that was kind of the first toe in the water around building that and it was just out of, you know, obvious necessity. I would say the crazy part is, I think, you know, that aha moment was really closer to 2016 to 2018 for us, which is kind of wild, you know, it’s nine to 11 years into our journey. But, you know, when we talk about how we started it, you know, we started the business and we accidentally kept going. It was really around that 2016 time when we had probably closer to nine or 10 team members. We actually started to understand systems and processes and start to look at a sales engine and how do we actually build this? And that really was the start of we have to, we have to run this as a mature organization. And that’s really where we started to look everywhere. Ironically, the last place we looked at were agencies, you know, in my opinion, and I think you would probably share, the traditional agency model doesn’t really scale that well. Ironically, I just read a research paper in my inbox maybe a week ago and I kid you not the actual title of it was digital agencies don’t scale and let us help you grow. And I was like, no, no, we’re actually doing the other thing and it works very well and you actually need to scale. And so 2016 is, you know, that’s when we started it and,

Greg Alexander:


Miles Kailburn:

From there, it’s just been a journey towards persistent improvement.

Greg Alexander:

You know, so, for long-time listeners and particularly the members, they know, we have this thing called the boutique framework and it’s based on a life cycle of a firm. And we believe to go from grow to scale. The three stages are about 15 years, three stages grow, scale, exit five years each stage. And sometimes when Miles, when I talk to people like yourself, they say, well, well, jeez I’m really behind schedule. You know, I’ve been at this 17 years and I’m probably another 17 years away from selling the firm, and what I would say to those people as well. You got to really think through what the start date was. So in your case, listening to you, I would suggest that your start date, at least the way we look at it, you know, very kind of academic and methodical was really 2016 is, when you thinking about it as a firm, you know, not just a way to raise the family and pay the bills and that kind of thing. So, from that standpoint, you know, what I hear it is 2024 your eight years in. So that feels about right? Because you’re smack dab in the middle of the scale stage. I wanna ask you about that because sometimes when people make that switch, you know, from the old way to the new way and they start worrying about things like payroll and HR, the job satisfaction dips because they’re not practicing the craft anymore. They’re building a business. And sometimes that’s not as fun. Did that happen to you? Did that not happen to you? How did you deal with it? How did your wife deal with it? Like tell us about that?

Miles Kailburn:

Yeah, the first couple of years, well, jumping back to your 2016 point, that’s how we’ve come to accept it. You know, that time in, you know, we don’t really count the time in our twenties. We didn’t know what we were doing. And so, but actually before that, you know, you share some benchmarks around certain statistics, and key metrics in grow, scale, and exit, and you showed them at the founders summit. And when we look at that, we, to your point, we found, you know, some of our metrics were in exit stage. You know, a good chunk were in scale and certain ones were in growth. And so, you know, I think to your point, we’re transitioning through that. And that structure has really helped us start to fine-tune where we need to focus because I think jumping into ultimately what your question was the five years or whatever 2016 to 2021 ish when I joined collected 54, you’re just looking for pebbles to turn over and see. Is this a good idea? There’s no models in the agency world to really scale? And nor is apparently scale as a concept in our world. And so, I didn’t want to grow as a marketing company. We looked at a bunch of them. The models didn’t make sense. It didn’t actually excite us. It just introduced a lot of complexity, and not a lot of fun. And so we’re always trying to grow a different way. And, and we just kind of, you know, some people on our team refer to it. You got to kiss a lot of frogs, to find the princess and keep looking for things. And so honestly, we started to look at other time but other professional service companies. So we looked at accounting firms. We looked at legal firms who looked at architects and we started to pull elements of those back into the company. And I remember some conversations with our other partners. So, my wife and I are the cofounder majority shareholders and we have two other minority partners who I love absolutely dearly and when we kind of bring that or when I bring those ideas back, they’re like you’re nuts that’s not us that’s not our industry. And I’m like, yeah, but this is how this should work. And if we did it this way… we could do something really different, and a lot more fun. And so for me, the tipping point was, you know, finding the book, and looking at your model. I vividly remember reading it thinking, holy cow. This actually is the model I’m only 70 percent through it. He’s clarified that it is actually a model. And here’s the other 30 percent and you, I remember running back to the office and it was like, hey, this is a thing. This is what we’re gonna be. We’re going to benchmark and consider ourselves and operate as a professional services company. And, you know, we’re gonna run ourselves as a mature organization, which also then means we had to, you know, we’re very comfortable except the fact that we ran it as a lifestyle business. We had no idea what we were doing. We didn’t have metrics, and a lot of this stuff. And so, the more we started to focus on some of these elements within the professional services side, the more it became clear that we were the stereotypical lifestyle business, and that was not what we wanted to be.

Greg Alexander:

Yeah. You know, and when you think about this, right? In the model, I mean all that we’ve done through the community is codified, right? The story that you’re sharing with everybody is the story that everybody lives. And you hear the term professional services, people like people say what’s a well that’s the designation according to the bureau of labor statistics and the IRS. That’s why the number 54 is in the name collective 54. And what it basically is that it’s the expertise business. In the expertise business, we all have the same business model where marketing selling and delivering our expertise for a living for a fee. Now, you might package that fee. Maybe it’s hourly. Maybe it’s a retainer, maybe it’s a fixed bed, whatever it is. The expertise might be in your case, marketing, in my case, it was management consulting and others, it’s writing software. The expertise could be different, but that is the business. And there’s one point 5,000,000 of those firms just in the US alone, two trillion dollars a year spent on it. If you can believe that, which is miraculous. And over 3,000,000 people in the United States work for these firms with the overwhelming majority of them in the boutique, the small firm. So, the reason why I’m saying all this is because you said something there, that was funny. It’s a thing. Yeah, it is a thing once you recognize it, it’s the thing that all of a sudden there’s patterns that you can model yourself after what a lot of firms do, well, that’s interesting. What are accountants do? That’s intriguing consulting shops. They do it a little differently, but that’s interesting as well. And you can learn all these things and pieces things together. And that’s where the scalability comes from. And that’s the real distinction between the freelance lifestyle business. And again, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s never gonna scale you’re gonna make a heck of a living and live a nice lifestyle, but you’re never gonna be able to in wealth, and sell that to somebody else. Maybe your employees, maybe your clients maybe an external acquire it’s. Never going to happen. If you stay in that way. One final question then we’ll wrap this up because we’ll save all the Rich stuff for the private member. Q and a. Do you think your life cycle as a person, your age had an impact on your desire to want to have more than a lifestyle business? Because, you know, you started in your early twenties. And, and if I’m looking at you right now, you’re probably in your late thirties, maybe early forties. Is that about right?

Miles Kailburn:

Yeah, early forties.

Greg Alexander:

Yeah. So, did a, did that have an impact on your motivations?

Miles Kailburn:

Yeah, you know, certainly, in our twenties quite literally, time was an unrestricted commodity. You know, that’s how we built the business that’s what we could bring to the table… as we started to approach probably our mid thirties, and I, it’s not necessarily kids but kids factored into that picture. You just can’t do it that way. And also we needed, you know, different talent sets. We needed, you know, a little more structure and that started that shift into, you know, professionalising the firm and compared to how we operated, you know… then versus now it is night and day. You know, we’ve got systems. We’ve got predictability. We’ve got accurate forecasting, you know, these are all hard things to get through or, you know, they took some effort and some iteration to get through. But the stability and comfort at the end of the day, putting my head on the pillow, knowing that, you know, our company is supported by a mature maturing group of processes and systems is huge. I would be terrified to go back to the freelance life cycle model where it’s feast or famine on small projects. It’s the worst of most worlds. When you get to the predictability on the other side, yeah.

Greg Alexander:

Very well said. And the way you rest your head on the pillow every night, that’s one of the benefits of building a sustainable firm, repeatable processes that isn’t just, you know, flimsy, I could go away overnight. Well for those that are listening to this, you know, if you want to hear more from Miles about specifically what he did, to go from this kind of freelance lifestyle business to this professionalised professional services firm that allows him to sleep peacefully at night. I encourage you all to attend the role model session which will be on Friday and we’ll hear more about Miles story and you’ll be able to ask questions directly of him. But until then, Miles, I always appreciate you giving back to the community. You are a giver, not a taker. And we’re so lucky to have you. So, thanks for coming on the show and sharing your experience with us.

Miles Kailburn:

Yeah, thank you, Greg. My, my honor. My privilege.

Greg Alexander:

All right. Until next time, everybody, thanks for tuning in and I wish you the best of luck as you try to grow, scale, and exit your firm.

Note: This transcript was generated by Gong.

Episode 138 –  Journey Maps: What Are They, How Are They Used, and Why Every Professional Service Firm Needs Them – Member Case by Miles Kailburn

Quality work is table stakes, not a competitive advantage. Lots of firms deliver quality work and many clients cannot tell the difference between great work and average work. In contrast, the client experience is a powerful differentiator. Very few firms can deliver an outstanding client experience consistently. Those that can scale. The tool they use to do so is called a journey map. Attend this session and learn what a journey map is, and how to create and use them effectively. 


Greg Alexander [00:00:10] Welcome to the Pro Serv Podcast, a podcast for leaders of thriving boutique professional services firms. If you’re not familiar with us, Collective 54 is the first mastermind community focused on the unique needs of founders of boutique professional services firms. My name’s Greg Alexander. I’m the founder and I’m going to be your host today. On in this episode, we’re going to talk about one of the most important tools that services firms have at their disposal being best in class. And this tool can make a significant improvement in many areas of your business. And the tool I’m referring to is the journey map. And we have a role model with us today who’s an expert at this. His name is Miles. I’m going to mispronounce your last name. I’ll say it for me. Kelburn Kelburn. I was going to say Kelburn. So thank you for that. And Miles, it’s good to see you. Would you introduce yourself and your firm to the audience? 

Miles Kailburn [00:01:13] Certainly. Thanks for having me on today. We are a 17 year old creative firm located in northern Colorado, primarily focused on high lifetime value segments and client industries. And our company is OTM. You’ll find us at Time.com. 

Greg Alexander [00:01:35] All right, Very good. So let’s let’s start from the basics. You know, we have some young emerging firms here, and this term might not be familiar to them. So what is a journey map? 

Miles Kailburn [00:01:46] Simply put, a journey map is a visual representation of whichever audience you’re going after. Could be employees, that could be customers. Anything that we’re we’re tracking. But really, it’s it’s a visual representation of the process that they go through, whether it’s employment, buying services, things like that. 

Greg Alexander [00:02:06] Okay. And let’s let’s take those one at a time here. So if I have a journey map and let’s say I want to use it for service delivery because I want my client to have an exceptional experience, how might I use it in that context? 

Miles Kailburn [00:02:25] It’s a great question. And I just walked out of a service delivery meeting where we were going through that right now on SEO and social services. So. The first thing is to go through and map out what are the touch points in terms of I guess, first, are we looking at securing new work or delivering existing work to existing clients? 

Greg Alexander [00:02:47] So I’m going to get to the new work in a moment, but for this example, delivering existing work. 

Miles Kailburn [00:02:52] All right. So that’s what we’re going to map out. First is what our client engagement experience is. So we’re going to look at that typically on our side on a monthly, quarterly and annual basis. And so we’re going to map out all the touchpoints that we need to have with a client and really also what are the touch points and areas and timing of their business that they need to communicate with us. We’re going to lay that out kind of on a linear, flat visual map. There’s some great tools at mural near Miro smartly to to map that out. And then from there we’re going to look at what are the emotions that are driving that on the customer side, Where where are there intentional opportunities to align with the customer that we can get ahead of that we can predict? And then from there, we’re going to start to build our services really around that map. 

Greg Alexander [00:03:46] Okay, some terminology here. So touch points. What is a touchpoint? 

Miles Kailburn [00:03:52] Touchpoint would be any engagement that a prospective client or existing client has with our brand. So that could be visiting a website, reading a newsletter, engaging in social for the existing client side. It’s typically going to be more around our IT within our client engagement model. It’s going to be more around client meetings, client cadence, client reviews. Typically anything that account services leading is going to be a communication touchpoint. 

Greg Alexander [00:04:25] Yeah, Okay. Very good. And our audience here today is our members. So I’ll use Collective 54 as an example because they’ve all gone through this. An example of a touchpoint for us is your onboarding session. You know, we know that if you get onboarded well and it’s a good experience and then we’re off to the races and things are going to work out when onboarding does not go well, which sometimes happens for a variety of reasons, then you know, it’s a rocky road from there and we’re in recovery mode right away. So that’s an example of a touchpoint, that’s a milestone on a journey map. And, you know, highlighting that and recognizing it for the level of importance that it has and being really good at it is what a journey map would help you do. Now, you mentioned the word emotions, which I have to double click on because I completely agree with you on this, because sometimes with clients it’s not necessarily what you deliver them, although that is important, of course, but it’s how they feel in the project itself and emotions can get in the way. So for example, when someone comes to our onboarding session, they they kind of know like what they just bought, but not really. So they’re coming at it with, you know, a fair amount of skepticism. And then we need to know that. And so therefore we kind of go overboard in how we explain things to remove some of that skepticism and get them to open up a bit. So emotions plays a huge role here. So, Miles, how does how does your firm help clients? Because I know you do this for a living as well as use it yourself. How do you help people identify what those emotions may be? 

Miles Kailburn [00:06:00] The emotions are. I mean, to your point, that’s that’s almost almost a majority of what you’re managing from. From analyzing that, it really comes down to a bunch of different touch points. Some of it’s qualitative, some of it’s quantitative. So we use focus groups a lot. We use session recording tools like Hotjar that will record website activity to look at hesitancy and delay. But really it comes down to watching the customer in one way or another. We can you and I can sit in a room and we can hypothesize what what a pinpoint is to a perspective or where the emotional state of a prospective collective 54 member or potential sales prospect. But that doesn’t really do us enough good until we actually sit down and have those conversations like you guys do with your prospective members in measure that go back, look at the journey map. Are we addressing these touch points or are these emotions at the right touch point? And what could we do differently maybe leading into that onboarding process or things like that to actually influence that emotion? 

Greg Alexander [00:07:16] Yep. Very good. Now, these are used also in the sales process with new prospects, not just with existing clients during client discovery or client delivery. Excuse me, is it the process basically this the same into supply differently or is it an entirely different process? 

Miles Kailburn [00:07:35] The way we do it as well will basically take a look at the full funnel. So we’re going to look at it from a marketing and sales perspective first. So we’ll start to map through the marketing marketing process. So looking at awareness, consideration and acquisition and so working basically top down tracking that prospect or that persona really from the point at which they are even entertaining the idea of joining a group, buying a car or whatever, that, that buying that customer journey is all the way down through the marketing channels. The transition from marketing qualified lead an MQ out to a sales qualified lead, handing that over to the sales process. And then from there it’s a it is a separate journey inside of the sales process, but we look at it as a linear extension of that marketing, qualified marketing customer journey cycle, because really we’re looking at what is the customer’s experience or perspective customers experience going through that whole process. And then once they become a customer, then it serves to nurture and client engagement, so commonly referred to as a bow tie funnel. But really at that point, once they’re signed, you basically start a whole new customer journey. 

Greg Alexander [00:08:55] Tell us what a bow tie bow tie funnel is. 

Miles Kailburn [00:09:00] So think of two triangles that meet in the middle and the pointy side. But basically you’ve got your customer journey coming in, you’re attracting customers, you’re nurturing them, you’re getting them into your sales table. So from left to right, that’s getting a little more narrow. And that that center point in between is the conversion that client has purchased. The client has signed up, and at that point you actually start the process all over again, just well further on the right hand side of the spectrum. And that becomes what we would consider a client engagement model. So instead of looking at how are we heading them up with drip campaigns and nurturing their sales process, it’s how are we nurturing them as a customer? Are we having the right meeting cadences? Are we delivering things as planned, and are we doing our quarterly business reviews and things like that at the right cadences? 

Greg Alexander [00:09:54] Okay, got it. If I’m a member and I don’t have a journey map and I want to get started, but I might be paralyzed because I don’t even know how to take the first two or three steps. What do I do? 

Miles Kailburn [00:10:07] It’s a little funny, but the first thing I would do is the accidental way we got into this is I would go Google Starbucks journey map. There’s a couple of visuals. It we accidentally stumbled across it a decade ago, and it’s an incredibly well structured document that outlines the buying process and considerations that go into getting that daily cup of coffee. And it’s pretty spot on. I would take a look at that first. That’s pretty easy to wrap your head around as we’ve all gone through Starbucks going from there and actually putting it into use, the two resources would be smartly applied. They are a very large customer journey focused platform, but they’ve got a lot of resources. And then video audio, which is IDL, has some human centered service design courses that you can take and those are really fantastic, maybe 4 to 6 week boot camps that really can get you going from from nothing to your first map. 

Greg Alexander [00:11:12] Awesome. And the first one just to do the spell again. S a l. P y. 

Miles Kailburn [00:11:18] S a ap l y a map. 

Greg Alexander [00:11:23] My, my, my dyslexia is getting the best of me simply because. 

Miles Kailburn [00:11:31] I want to. Yeah. Napoli Yeah, and they’ve got a lot of great resources. 

Greg Alexander [00:11:37] So who in a firm should own this? Not only the creation of it for the first time, but I would imagine it gets heavily iterated against who owns us. 

Miles Kailburn [00:11:46] It’s a great clash and we see it as a cross-functional resource. So with our clients, we work with about 45 brands, pretty much all of them adopt customer Journey as a focus at the leadership level, typically at the CEO level. They’re not the ones leading it, but once we once we can align with the CEO around leveraging and managing towards and building towards customer journeys, that really allows us to build through the cross-functional teams, whether it’s customer experience, marketing, sales, h.R. And so in most of our clients, really, the ownership is usually spread out across two or three department heads that are each managing it in their own areas. We’ve got clients that use them for professional development, onboarding internally, externally sales, marketing, even down to how to build a house. Our clients have kind of taken journey maps as really the source of truth for almost everything they deliver, which has been absolutely exciting to see. 

Greg Alexander [00:12:56] Yeah, I’ll share a story to bring all this to life as maybe a way to put a bow on our session. So I had dinner with a gentleman Tuesday night this week. He reached out to me, called on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I read your book and I’m going to be in Dallas on a business meeting. I’d like to come see you. And I looked him up and he looked like somebody that would fit well with our community. So I said, Sure. So I went and met him for dinner. And he he’s really great guy. And I was so glad that he reached out and said, So what did you think of the book? And he’s like, Well, he goes, I read it about two years ago. And right there I was, dropped my fork in my plate. I’m like, What? So all of my assumptions of my journey map kind of went away. I’m like, So you read it two years ago and here we are tonight. So like, what happened? And he’s like, Well, I started listening to your podcasts and you mentioned at the end of your podcast, so that told me my call to action was working. He goes, and I went back and listen to it this time via the Kindle audio version. So and I didn’t know that right in there. I am kind of not really paying attention to those early steps in the journey map. And then he went from listening to audio and to reaching out to me, which is, you know, the idea behind content marketing. And here we are face to face. And it was something about the audio that did it as opposed to the text, you know, audio, all of it more intimate, you know, not a flat, that kind of thing. So just as an example for the audience that, you know, really understanding the behavior, the journey that a prospect or client goes on can help you make informed decisions in so many different ways. 

Miles Kailburn [00:14:35] Well, Greg, one point in there is you mentioned duration. You know, everyone has their own duration and that might be a little bit on the farther side, but respecting the duration that the customers are organically going to go through allows you to really back your tactics and and decisions to align with that and in our opinion, respect the customer journey. Yeah. 

Greg Alexander [00:14:59] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, in fact, if I had known that he had read the book two weeks ago, my aggressive sales guys might have reached out to him and it probably would have backfired. Like he that wasn’t the way he wanted to go through it. So I guess I got lucky in that scenario. All right. Let me let me summarize a few things here. So for members that are listening to this, you’re going to get a meeting invite for the exclusive private member Q&A session. And this will allow us to double click on this much more than we can do so on a shorter podcast. And it gives you the opportunity to ask Myles your questions directly to him. So I highly encourage you to attend that. For nonmembers that are listening, get off your, you know what and become a member and you can do that. A collective 54 icon fill out a form and some will follow up with you if you don’t want to get off your you know what and you want to just, you know, investigate a little bit more. Check out the book that I just mentioned. Ironically, it’s called The Boutique How to Start Scale Sell in Professional Services Firm authored by yours Truly, Greg Alexander. And again, you can find that on Amazon. With that, Miles, you know, the way that collective works is, is we make deposits in the collective body of knowledge so that we all benefit from it and we share best practices, and that’s how we all get smarter. So you made a big contribution today. So on behalf of all the members, I want to thank you for being here. 

Miles Kailburn [00:16:15] My pleasure. I’ve been on the receiving side of that for a long time. So happy to give back. Greg Alexander [00:16:19] Okay, Very good. All right. Until next time, I wish you luck as you try to grow, scale and sell your firm. Take care.